Röhren und Hören

Hallo everybody. I'm new here. At least as for putting a question. I've been reading a lot here before!
I will not write German as it is full of mistakes but I can understand and read it perfectly well! I live in Freiburg at the moment.

So, I just got a new Consonance CD 120-10 last week. A China model, with more or less the same circuitry inside as the 2.3 except for the extra XLR outputs.
When closing the tray and the CD gets its first quick spin, as well as when skipping to the next or previous track I get some whizzing noise coming out from the speakers. Not that loud, but you can't overhear it either. Of course it gets louder when the volume knob is up.
Anybody else has/had that??? Is this harmless or serious? The sound from the player itself is already great, at least when warmed up.
I also had a "Brummschleife" which got much better by connecting both the metal casings from the amp and CD with electrical wire, but I guess that's another story.

greetings!

Consonance cd120-10
Classic 6.10 (still saving for tubes..)
Aurum Cantus 3se
Xindak FS-2

sacredgates hat geschrieben: So, I just got a new Consonance CD 120-10 last week. A China model, with more or less the same circuitry inside as the 2.3 except for the extra XLR outputs.
When closing the tray and the CD gets its first quick spin, as well as when skipping to the next or previous track I get some whizzing noise coming out from the speakers. Not that loud, but you can't overhear it either. Of course it gets louder when the volume knob is up.
Anybody else has/had that??? Is this harmless or serious? The sound from the player itself is already great, at least when warmed up.
I also had a "Brummschleife" which got much better by connecting both the metal casings from the amp and CD with electrical wire, but I guess that's another story.

greetings!

Consonance cd120-10
Classic 6.10 (still saving for tubes..)
Aurum Cantus 3se
Xindak FS-2

Hello and welcome,

maybe Tom_H will give you some information about his 2.3, but as far as I know his unit worked perfect.
Most chinese models I know have a mute function by relais when not in operation.

Your problem with the hum... sounds like there is a missing earth wire in the power connection of your CDP.

Regards
Martin

Hallo Erzkanzler,

thanks for your reply.
(you comments were one of the reasons I bought the Aurum Cantus!).

HUM:
I have had the cd unit open already. The earth wire is just like on foto's on the web connecting the mains input plug to a bolt attached on top of the big right sided print board...
I'm still a little at a loss, even though wiring up the two metal casings amp + cd-p did help for 75%. I will try a thicker and shorter connecting wire soon. Also the trafo in the amp has a lot of mechanical hum, and I will replace it.

WHIZ:
If the wizzing sound from the cd-p is just a matter of a failing or malfunctioning mute function than I could live with that. If it can be fixed easy even better. My fear was it might corrupt the audio signal during normal playback as well (even though I cannot hear anything bad there).

BOEEEM><BAM
By the way, the Aurum Cantus 3se's still don't sound very contoured/controlled in the bass region. Could that be because of cd tube is not burnt in yet, or do the speakers need some time as well?

All the rest sounds just fine...

sacredgates hat geschrieben: HUM:
I have had the cd unit open already. The earth wire is just like on foto's on the web connecting the mains input plug to a bolt attached on top of the big right sided print board...
I'm still a little at a loss, even though wiring up the two metal casings amp + cd-p did help for 75%. I will try a thicker and shorter connecting wire soon. Also the trafo in the amp has a lot of mechanical hum, and I will replace it.

Please give me a link to the foto.

sacredgates hat geschrieben:WHIZ:
If the wizzing sound from the cd-p is just a matter of a failing or malfunctioning mute function than I could live with that. If it can be fixed easy even better. My fear was it might corrupt the audio signal during normal playback as well (even though I cannot hear anything bad there).

If you use a test-cd with a zero-Signal you can check the influences by checking the output on a higher volume level.

sacredgates hat geschrieben:BOEEEM><BAM
By the way, the Aurum Cantus 3se's still don't sound very contoured/controlled in the bass region. Could that be because of cd tube is not burnt in yet, or do the speakers need some time as well?

My AC Leisure5 needed around 50h for break-in. The first 20 hours the sound was awful. After this, especially the bass was superb for this size.

Regards
Martin

Hallo Erzkanzler,

-Link to photo:
It is on this website already. Posted by Perka on the Opera Consonance 2.3 thread on page 15 on 02-06-2005.
He says the photos are the 2.2mk3, however this is definetely the CD120-10 anniversary model like I have. You can see the XLR symmetrical outputs are missing. On the second photo you can see the yellow green wire coming from the mains connection diving down and running at the front side of the unshielded trafo (only green side of the cable is visible) ending on the bolt to the very right on the board. (right side above condensators).

-About WHIZ:
I'll try the test with a test cd.
The sounds are not fast forwarded music sounds, it's more like the drive motor noises which get amplified when cd is taken in and spun, as well as when skipping tracks. The farther away the two tracks the clearer/longer the noise.
(When fast forwarding during playback I get muted fast forwarded music signals for the first few seconds, after that when it goes faster music signal is completely muted.)

-Aurum Cantus:
I've been playing a fair bit by now, but moderate level, and mostly gentle music, so I guess that's why the bass has not tightening up yet. The mids and highs are already wonderful though. (Can also listen to sopran sax etc. for more than 3 minutes now!)

regards and thanks,
sacredgates

Hello sacredgates,

talking about this picture:



First for test, I recommend to take a seperate wire from the mains to the RCA.

Hallo Erzkanzler,

thanks for your fast feedback and proposals. Really this is very nice and much appreciated!

Unfortunately I did not read your last posting yesterday night.
But I did some more systematic tests yesterday night and the outcome is interesting:

Both Whiz and Hum are the same problem!

I guess they must come because of a grounding loop (Masse Amp-Masse CDP-Masse Cinch). I hear the Whiz and Hum clearly even when the volume is on zero, and it goes up by factor 2 or 3 only when turning up the volume to extreme. So it does not come over the audio signal itself. I burnt a zero-signal cd and yes there also the same phenomenon, but relatively quiet. However there is a clear difference between "play" (more noise overlayering the basic hum) and "stop" (only the basic hum).
So just for testing purposes I used a mains connection with the earth disconnected: All problems gone! Dead quiet background (Except for the amp-trafo mechanical noise, but of course that doesn't come through the speakers).

So your suggestion was going already in the same diagnosis direction and I will try it tomorrow or over the weekend.
On the web I found some people who just disconnect the Masse/earth from the cdp and hope the Cinch Masse/earth connection will give enough safety over the amp Masse/earth.
Of course your suggestion is more life-inspiring.

If I understand rightly I leave the normal yellow-green earth wire as it is, and just add the suggested second one?

I can only do a small check first by holding a copper wire connecting the two suggested points, as I only have thick very low quality solder at the moment.

Of course I'll post the results.

regards,
(I'm more smiling already)
sacredgates

Erzkanzler hat geschrieben:

sacredgates hat geschrieben: So, I just got a new Consonance CD 120-10 last week. A China model, with more or less the same circuitry inside as the 2.3 except for the extra XLR outputs.
When closing the tray and the CD gets its first quick spin, as well as when skipping to the next or previous track I get some whizzing noise coming out from the speakers. Not that loud, but you can't overhear it either. Of course it gets louder when the volume knob is up.
Anybody else has/had that??? Is this harmless or serious? The sound from the player itself is already great, at least when warmed up.
I also had a "Brummschleife" which got much better by connecting both the metal casings from the amp and CD with electrical wire, but I guess that's another story.

greetings!

Consonance cd120-10
Classic 6.10 (still saving for tubes..)
Aurum Cantus 3se
Xindak FS-2

Hello and welcome,

maybe Tom_H will give you some information about his 2.3, but as far as I know his unit worked perfect.
Most chinese models I know have a mute function by relais when not in operation.

Your problem with the hum... sounds like there is a missing earth wire in the power connection of your CDP.

Regards
Martin

Unfortunately I am not in the position to give any suggestive information on the 120. As Martin said, I previously had the 2.3 which looked totally different from the inside design. I had absolutely no problems with hum and other noises. But from my experience with other components I think that you are already on the right way with the earth leed.

Good Luck

sacredgates hat geschrieben:If I understand rightly I leave the normal yellow-green earth wire as it is, and just add the suggested second one?

Right, most hum is added by a not "clean" mass on the RCA-cinch.

sacredgates hat geschrieben:I can only do a small check first by holding a copper wire connecting the two suggested points, as I only have thick very low quality solder at the moment.

That's good enough for the check.

Regards
Martin

O.K.

it will be done.

thanks to Tom, too...

Hallo,

I tried the extra wire connection suggested by Erzkanzler in a small check this morning.
Result:
Whiz (all drive-unit-motor sounds) is gone.
Hum is still there. (maybe even a little louder...)

Well that's half the problem gone already; great tip!

Somewhere I read about Hum:

Aus dem Kreis "Schutzleiter CDP" - "Abschirmung der Signalleitung zwischen CDP und Amp" - "Schutzleiter Amp" entsteht eine Leiterschleife (daher die Bezeichnung "Brummschleife), in die parasitäre elektromagnetische Wechselfelder eine Wechselspannung (Brummspannung) induzieren. Diese Spannung ist umso höher, je größer die Fläche ist, die von der Leiterschleife gebildet wird. Und da die Abschirmung des Signalkabels ebenfalls das Signal transportiert, wird eben die darauf induzierte Brummspannung ebenso verstärkt.

Somebody also suggested for similar hum-problem:

Da würde ich versuchen, eine ganz kurze Litzenleitung (mit aufgepreßten Kabel-Ösen, bzw. -Schuhen) (Länge im Bereichvon 10-20 Zentimetern) an jeweils eine Gehäuse-Schraube der Geräte zu befestigen und Diese dadurch zu verbinden. Wahrscheinlich ist der Effekt am Größsten:A) Je kürzer die Verbindung B) Je näher diese Verbindung am Netzanschluß des jeweiligen Gerätes liegt...

So that's what I've been doing before but it eliminates only 70%. Maybe shorter mains connection wires + shorter and better extra cable connecting both metal casings will reduce it even further.
(for the test this morning I disconnected this wire)

I don't feel like using a "Trenn-Übertrager" as I heard they do influence sound (at least the affordable ones).

Any better/further suggestions welcome.

Regards + thanks,
sacredgates

Hallo again,

rereading the two German quotes the second "extra wire connection" suggestion doesn't seem to fit with the the first quoted diagnosis, or does it?
The suggested solution would make more sense in connection with "Erdungspotentialunterschiede" between Amp and CDP...

I just don't have enough experience with these things...

Regards,
sacredgates

Hello sacredgates,

looking to the pcb, the top side is (as mostly common) designed as a complete shield, normally connected to ground.
Well, I would now test with the earth/gnd wire to find a better connection point than the RCA's on the pcb.

Sorry, but without living object it's only try and error.

Regards
Martin

Erzkanzler hat geschrieben:Sorry, but without living object it's only try and error.

Regards
Martin

That's what I always tell my dear wife....................

Hallo Erzkanzler,

so you still think it must be possible to get rid of the hum as well in this way?

If I understand rightly I wire up the extra earth wire as suggested before to any point on the pcb shield anywhere in the whole CDP (instead of to the RCA) until I get the best result?

Is it possible the shield is on the down side? (I'm not home right now, but it didn't look like a shield-field was on top of the pcb, or is it possibly sandwiched?)

regards,
sacredgates

That's how Cayin solved it in the SCD-50T:



Regards
Martin

You must be the fastest answer-shooter in the country...
(I understand that fancy hat now)

O.K. I'll play around!
Will have no time before sunday eve/monday as I'm on the road.

Schönes Wochenende,
sacredgates

Ja, nur nicht auf den Beinen....

I've been trying quite a few things, but nothing works out well.
Always more or less hum or whiz or both.

The only radical solutions I can see are:

1)Trenn-Übertrager.

2)A "Ground lift": letting the entire inner PCB etc. float isolated from the metal casing (Is that what Cayin did with the SCD-50T ?)

3)No own mains earth connection for the CDP, pray the Cinch connection does the work via the Amp. (no kids around).

Well I lived (much) more dangerously in the past on my travels in India and Tibet, so until I have more time I'll live (or die) with the easiest audiophile solution...

By the way: the bass cleaned up quite a bit from changing a Jungson cinch cable to the Monitor Black and White NF-1202. Sounds less sweet/warm/charming now, but more balanced overall.