6922 Standardröhre für Cayin CDP's und VV

[yawg]

Hi Teiki,

Would you know which of the 12AX7 and 12AU7 types are most recommended and which have less treble?

I went tubes all the way now with EAR 200 watters, the 549 monos, excellent! My preamp is a German True Blue now of which there were only 35 made.

I just replaced the JJ and GE tubes in that preamp with Siemens/Halske MIL tubes, great sound, much more detail, space and transparency than with the JJ (which look Russian) and the GEs.

But my sound is now a bit brilliant with a bit too much treble. If you could recommend some alternatives, I would love to go hunting them down.

I love tube rolling! When my True Blue will be perfect, I'll roll the driver stage(s) of my EARs, too. Tim de Paravicini is a genius!

Regards, Jörg.

[teiki arii]

Would you know which of the 12AX7 and 12AU7 types are most recommended and which have less treble?

Well, it's very hard to answer since I don't know your items...
If you think your trebles are too high, try to replace 12AX7 by:
- RCA 5751 black plates, triple or double mica. The dynamic shall seem to be less crunchy, but the soundstage is amazing with less trebles...
- CV4024 Mulllard "shield logo", 12AT7WA...I put them in stade of 12AX7 in my Headphones Cayin HA-1A, and I am very happy indeed...
About 12AU7, try Mullard "shield logo" CV4003, or RCA 12AU7 blac plates or even RCA 5961...
But anyway, have you ever tried to put some dampers around your tubes: two per each, one for each mica?
Best regards...

PS: the best think to do to any item is to optimize them by someone serious! I found mines: André Devillers and Thibault Siezien in Belgium.
My Cayin CDT-17A is to be finished: André and Thibault did their best with changing OAP by discrets components, clock by a better one, scheme has been changed and I can tell you that the new CDP I have got, you have to get one at least at 10000 euros to be compared...
Nobody in Germany tried to give their item to him because of a lack of confidence, I think or because they're afraid. But I am the most happy guy for what he did with my system!

[MstrRöhrich]

Hallo,

ich habe mir in der Bucht ein Pärchen Siemens E88CC für den CDT17A zugelegt.

Die klangliche Auswirkung trifft genau meinen Geschmack.

Nun hat die Sache einen kleinen Haken:

Eine der beiden Röhren verhält sich, wie ich es bei anderen Röhren gleichen Typs und gleichen Herstellers gesehen habe. Die Heizung wird beim Einschalten erst mal recht hell (ca. 1-2 sec), um dann auf das normale Glimmen abzudunkeln.

Die andere Röhre fängt langsam an zu glimmen, um dann den Zustand der mittlerweile abgedunkelten ersten Röhre zu erreichen

Klanglich habe ich zwischen beiden Röhren keinen Unterschied bemerkt.

Der Verkäufer bietet volle Garantie. Ich müßte lediglich die Transportkosten tragen.

Gibt es hier einen Grund die Röhren tauschen zu lassen oder handelt es sich hier nur um einen "Schönheitsfehler", den man im geschlossenen Gerät ja nicht sehen kann....

Gruß Oliver

[yawg]

Hallo Oliver,

Bei manchen Röhren gehört das "Flashen" beim Start zum guten Ton. Es gibt sogar jede Menge Tube-Freaks die glauben, daß das ein gutes Zeichen ist, bzw. ein "Echtheitszeichen".

Ich selbst habe jede Menge "flashing" Röhren, viele ältere RTF-Kleinsignalröhren machen das, es scheint der Haltbarkeit nicht zu schaden.

Daß aber zwei des gleichen Typs so verschieden starten, finde ich komisch. Hast Du Dir deren Innenleben mal genauer angeschaut? Vielleicht sind es doch verschiedene Bauarten. E88CC gibt's ja wie Sand am Meer und auch massenhaft verschiedene vom selben Hersteller.

Sind es Siemens/Halske, die echten, oder bloß "Siemens"? Letztere kommen immer von anderen Herstellern, meistens wohl RTF (DDR).

Aber wenn der Klang stimmt, würde ich mir keine Sorgen machen. Meine Favoriten sind Siemens/Halske CCa A-Frames sowie Telefunken E88CC, verwende sie in meinem Cayin DA-2 Wandler.

Gruß, Jörg.

[yawg]

Hi Teiki,

I got some nice RCA 5751 triple mica black plates, they are awesome!!

Can't say that they have less treble, though. They are absolutely neutral with fantastic detail. I tried some GE triple mica grey plates with sloping getters before and they had also nice detail but the mid-highs were way too loud.

Perhaps I'll try some Sylvania Gold Brand triple mica black plates in the future, it seems they are the absolute top. And they are much more expensive ...

How do you rate the Sylvania Gold Brands? Ever tried them?

I don't like tube dampers, they can even make things worse. A cheaply built tube remains a bad tube, even with a damper. I like heavily built triple mica tubes with extra support rods, no microphonics whatsoever ...

Anyway, if you have the tubes in an enclosure or a cage, microphonics are also less. HiFi News tested dampers and the enclosures seemed to be as effective as dampers on "naked" tubes.

Regards, Jörg.

[teiki arii]

Hi Teiki,
I got some nice RCA 5751 triple mica black plates, they are awesome!!

Glad you ilke them..

How do you rate the Sylvania Gold Brands? Ever tried them?

Sorry, I have never tried them. But US forae like it very much... Perhaps because they don't know RTC 12AX7S "box plates"...

[2285b]

Moin,

ich habe mir mal erlaubt eine interessante Antwort aus dem 123-Thread auszuschneiden und hier einzufügen:

hallo

ist die ecc808 nicht eine bessere ecc88 ??

ich habe ja auch bei mir eine 803 statt einer 83 drin

tschö - bodoni

Hallo ,
die "bessere" ECC88 ist E88CC oder CCa in der Post - Version ( und natürlich E188CC als nochmals selektierte Version ) , amerikanisch 6DJ8 zu 6922 .
Die ECC808 ist eine :
"..........auf minimales Brummen , Mikrofonie und besserer Übersprechdämpfung optimierte Nachfolgerin der ECC83 .
Brummen : Schirmung der Gitterzuleitungen gegen die Heizfäden
Mikrofonie : Versteifen des Systemaufbaus gegenüber der ECC83
Die Übersprechdämpfung wurde mit Vermindern der Kapazitäten zw . beiden Systemen vergrößert ."
Quelle , frei zitiert Telefunken Laborbuch Nr . 4

Leider mußte bei dem geänderten Aufbau auf eine Pinkompatibilität zur 83 verzichtet werden .
Die ECC803s ist eine "echte" ECC83 , allerdings in Spanngitterversion , erkennbar an dem sehr kurzem Systemaufbau .
Die auch wieder nicht zur 83 pinkompatible Spanngitterversion von Siemens und Valvo ist die E283CC .
So , mehr Geheimnisse werden nicht verraten .
Mfg , Alexander .


[img:640:480]http://www.alextubefotos.gmxhome.de/Trioden/ECC803s.jpg[/img]

Meine Frage jetzt:

Wie verhält es sich mit der Kompatibilität von PCC88 zu ECC 88?

ich hätte nämlich da noch ein Quartett...

Viele Grüße
Axel

[AlexK]

Hallo Axel ,
Heizspannung ist unterschiedlich , PCC88 = 7 Volt ; ECC88 = 6,3 Volt und die maximal zulässige Anodenspannung ist geringer bei der PCC88 .
Datenblätter wie immer gibt es hier :

http://frank.pocnet.net/index.html

MfG , Alexander .

[heijopo]

Hi Axel

E = 6,3 Volt Heizung

P = 7 Volt Heizung

Kannst du ruhig mal einstecken

Mir gefällt die PCC 88 sehr gut, da auch noch Steiler

Gruß Heinzi

[heijopo]

Alex war schneller

Gruß Heinz

[2285b]

Danke Euch beiden,

dann werde ich die PCC mal ausprobieren. Könnt Ihr die PCC88 von Telefunken in etwa klanglich einordnen?


Viele Grüße
Axel

[2285b]

Moin,

habe noch ein paar Klangeindrücke gefunden:

Tubes/Valves
From time to time I will be listing vintage tubes for auction. All listed tubes are checked by me on a repaired, and calibrated Hickok 752A Dynamic Mutual Conductance Tube Tester. I then use a second 752A tester to verify the results. This tester is considered by many of the online tube gurus to be one of the best commercial testers ever built, and their go-to tester. This tester cost a technician $385, in 1962...over $2200 in todays money. Most of the tubes I list are used-pulls from Hewlitt Packard and Tektronix test equipment that is being scrapped due to its "Boat Anchor" status. Boat Anchor? Much of this equipment is in good working condition, but is big and very heavy; 30lbs, 60lbs and even heavier. Modern equipment is much lighter, has more features/expanded test ranges, though not always superior in quality.
I also buy the same type of old used equipment/parts, or tubes to use in restoring choice pieces.

Some Tube Rolling Reviews and Links

Thor DAC

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/script ... .html#6DJ8

Joe's reviews of the 6DJ8 family of tubes, very detailed.

Decware Zen SE84cs

http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t.pl?f=set&m=35662

Sock Svt 6N1P-well extended on both ends but hollow sounding in the mids

Philips JAN 6922-fuller midrange, less extended, warmer than the Svt

Amperex White Label 6922 PQ, USA-Extremely dynamic, strong bass, no real weak spot, but perhaps a bit less "atmospheric" than the next tube.

Amperex Bugle Boy, Herleen-My favorite on this list with this amp. Less dynamic than the above tube, with a slightly warm signature. Outstanding midrange and extremely detailed and atmospheric. It is more colored than the PQ.

To restore the bass I lost with the Bugle Boy I switched in a Blackburn Mullard 5Ar4 GZ34.

Ah Njoe Tjoeb ’99 CD Player

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/e ... joeb99.htm

My top two recommendations are the Russian Sovtek 6922 and the Amperex Bugle Boy 6922/E88CC premiums. The Sovtek’s sound is sexy, full-bodied, vintage-tube like. The lower midrange clearly shines through, and I prefer that to the brightness of the stock tubes. Unfortunately, the Sovtek is not the smoothest sounding tube put on the face of the earth by the Tube Gods. Harmonic overtones are slightly grainy in texture, lacking a bit of sheen and polish. For about double the price, you could have it all by opting for the Amperex Bugle Boys

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/digital- ... 86crx.aspx

Lastly, the subject of tube rolling. When I bought this player from Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio, he told me that the tubes are a buffer in this player and really peform the function of "flavoring" the sound, but that they do make a difference. With that in mind, note that the types of tubes that will sound good here are not necessarily the same as those that would really sing in your tube pre-amp.

I tried the following tubes: Siemens E188CC goldpins (70's vintage, radar select), Siemens & Halske E88CC, Amperex 7308 (US), Amperex 6922 (US), Mullard CV2493, Mullard E188CC, and Sylvania 7308 (60's, D-Getter, goldpin, lab grade). I didn't even give the stock Philips 6922 steel pins a chance, so I have nothing to report on their sound. The Siemens E188CC and Sylvania tubes were too neutral, almost disappearing to the point of just not doing anything for the sound. Bass was very tight with both, though. It was nearly the same thing with the S&H E88CC, tight bass and neutral to the point of not giving any flavor, but I did get a little nicer, smoother, midrange. Both of the Amperex tubes sounded very nice, smooth with a great soundstage, in fact, the best soundstage of all of the tubes. But they were a little on the cool side, lacking warmth and that sweet tube sparkle. (By the way, I could not detect a difference in the sound of the 6922 vs. the 7308 in this circuit. So, if you're inclined to go with Amperex, save some bucks and go with the 6922). Lastly, the Mullards. These are the winners in my book for this particular CD player. They added body and warmth to the sound and had that wonderful Mullard midrange. Bass was not quite as good as with the more neutral tubes, and the soundstage was not as good as the Amperex tubes, but those wonderful mids more than made up for it. I wound up leaving the CV2493's in, but did not find any real difference between the CV2493 and E188CC. In fact, they appear to be the same tube. (If you are swayed by my review that CV2493's are the best, please note that there are at least three different types of this tube, one made in Holland, essentially a Philips E188CC, and two made in England. One of the English-made ones has a great deal of midrange depth, but is a bit light on bass. The one that worked for me, was the one most like the Mullard E188CC).

http://www.tubeworld.com/6dj8.htm

SONIC COMMENTS: -------------- "I recently ordered a 6087=5Y3WGTB=indirectly heated=slow-warmup rugged 5Y3GT recitifier tube from you for my Decware Zen SET amp along with a pair of ECC88=6DJ8 Siemens Germany NOS original boxes same date codes 1960's for my Ah! Tjoeb 99 tubed CD player. I wanted to let you know that both purchases are working out great. I started with the rectifier tube and noticed that the amp played louder with more bass and better rythym. After trying that alone for a while, last night I installed the old ECC88 SIEMENS tubes in my cd player. WOW. they are awesome. there is more and clear sound in the upper registers, cymbals and triangles sound more realistic, and percussion instruments sound tighter and more detailed. In addition, they keep everything that was already there in the music that i liked with the stock tubes. thanks for some great recomendations."

Melos SHA-1

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8803

Dodd ELP

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthr ... post401460

Sound Presence Deluxe Mk II Preamp

http://www.tubeworld.com/6dj8.htm

SONIC COMMENTS: -------------- "I tried a number of excellent tubes with my First Sound Presence Deluxe Mk II Preamp. The famed Siemens Gold Pin 7308's, Amperex 6922 Holland D-getter, Siemens CCA and the 1959 cryo'd Phillips Miniwatt 6DJ8 you sold me. Each tube obviously has its strengths: 7308's were quiet, transparent and refined. Amperex 6922's open and detailed, yet a bit warmer than the Siemens. I didnt care for the CCA's in my system (too lean). The miniwatt 6dJ8 you sold me BLOWS them away. Well, let me rephrase that. On vocals, acoustics, simple jazz/rock, these are the very best i have yet to hear. Midrange presence and bloom is to die for. Yet the tube is also really quiet and provides plenty of detail and sparkle. I could go on in "audiophile" terms and state that the Siemens may have been a bit more trasnparent, that the 6922's maybe ever so slightly less rolled off, but that's only a small part of the story. I always came back to this tube - very simply because it created images and timbre that were REAL. People use the term, "musical" all the time - but now i know what they mean.... These tubes simply sound like music. When they are in, I get immersed in the music, and forget all the nonsense we obsess about as audiophiles. They may not be as good in complex/loud jazz and rock, but i dont listen to that much of that anyway. Short of that minor caveat, I recommend these without reservation. Worth every penny I spent on them Art G. Minneapolis, MN"

Quelle

Viel Spaß beim Rollen
Axel